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During Swancon, the darling ![[livejournal.com profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/external/lj-userinfo.gif)
madradish brought up an interesting topic. In sum, she provided the following scenario:
You walk into a shop for which you have a VIP card. As you enter, the microchip in your VIP card sends a message to the computer behind the counter, telling the staff member who you are, where you lived, your demographic details and your last X number of purchases, for example.
Now, here is where I’d like you to pause, think about your gut/instinctive reaction to that, and then if you think of yourself as introverted or extroverted.
The idea that a shop assistant (who I’d probably never met before) could greet me by name and know quite a lot about me before I’d even walked up to the counter creeped me the fuck out. So I did what I’ve been getting better at doing: I mentally acknowledged the feeling, attempted to put it to one side and concentrated on the conversation.
It turns out thatmadradish and I come from opposite ends of the spectrum on the idea. She comes from the sales point of view, where being able to know your customers means you can better target products at them (my words, so probably my take on her perspective, too. It’s been hours since the conversation, it’s blurring a little). Whereas I come from the end of the spectrum that says “I don’t want what I buy to be that public. At all.”
She pressed the point, asking why, and I couldn’t come up with an answer that satisfied either of us. I attempted to draw a parallel with the “if you haven’t done anything wrong you haven’t got anything to worry about...yeah, right” argument, although that’s more about ‘what is this information going to be used for’ which is actually less what creeps me out, more that first step of people having the information in the first place.
We talked about privacy versus anonymity, which to me is really the crux of the argument. There’s the assurance that your personal details (that you write down when you sign up for the card in the first place) will be stored securely and not given to organisations without your consent. That’s privacy, technically. Or it’s the best version we seem to have in the age of the Internet and SmartRiders and the like.
Then there’s the ability/assurance that you can go about your business without being tracked/monitored/recorded. That’s anonymity, and that, as you can probably tell by my wording, is how I’d prefer to be able to go about my day.
madradish pressed that point, too, and I couldn’t tell her at the time why this was so important to me.
Having had several hours to think about it, and a laptop to type it out on, I’m forming the hypothesis that it’s at least partially to do with personality types: the more introverted you are, (and I am very introverted) the more likely you are to be discomforted with the above scenario. The more extroverted (andmadradish, here is where you jump up and down on me if I’m wrong *grins*, but you present as very extroverted to my eyes) the more likely you are to think the above scenario is useful.
So, help me test this, flist: Like or dislike? Introverted or extroverted? Feel free to ramble in comments.
Disclaimers: Firstly, the VIP card scenario does require you to willingly give over contact details, so the argument can go ‘just don’t sign up in the first place’. Leave that aside for the moment: let’s say you weren’t aware of the microchip function, for example.
Secondly, I’m typing this after midnight, mid-way through Swancon. I’ve rambled, and will probably edit later. Mostly, I just want to get the idea out there while it’s still percolating in my head. Differences in personality fascinate me, and right now the example is fresh in my mind. If it turns out that the ease/discomfort is actually the result of [insert random factor X here] then so be it. *grin*
madradish brought up an interesting topic. In sum, she provided the following scenario:You walk into a shop for which you have a VIP card. As you enter, the microchip in your VIP card sends a message to the computer behind the counter, telling the staff member who you are, where you lived, your demographic details and your last X number of purchases, for example.
Now, here is where I’d like you to pause, think about your gut/instinctive reaction to that, and then if you think of yourself as introverted or extroverted.
The idea that a shop assistant (who I’d probably never met before) could greet me by name and know quite a lot about me before I’d even walked up to the counter creeped me the fuck out. So I did what I’ve been getting better at doing: I mentally acknowledged the feeling, attempted to put it to one side and concentrated on the conversation.
It turns out that
madradish and I come from opposite ends of the spectrum on the idea. She comes from the sales point of view, where being able to know your customers means you can better target products at them (my words, so probably my take on her perspective, too. It’s been hours since the conversation, it’s blurring a little). Whereas I come from the end of the spectrum that says “I don’t want what I buy to be that public. At all.”She pressed the point, asking why, and I couldn’t come up with an answer that satisfied either of us. I attempted to draw a parallel with the “if you haven’t done anything wrong you haven’t got anything to worry about...yeah, right” argument, although that’s more about ‘what is this information going to be used for’ which is actually less what creeps me out, more that first step of people having the information in the first place.
We talked about privacy versus anonymity, which to me is really the crux of the argument. There’s the assurance that your personal details (that you write down when you sign up for the card in the first place) will be stored securely and not given to organisations without your consent. That’s privacy, technically. Or it’s the best version we seem to have in the age of the Internet and SmartRiders and the like.
Then there’s the ability/assurance that you can go about your business without being tracked/monitored/recorded. That’s anonymity, and that, as you can probably tell by my wording, is how I’d prefer to be able to go about my day.
madradish pressed that point, too, and I couldn’t tell her at the time why this was so important to me. Having had several hours to think about it, and a laptop to type it out on, I’m forming the hypothesis that it’s at least partially to do with personality types: the more introverted you are, (and I am very introverted) the more likely you are to be discomforted with the above scenario. The more extroverted (and
madradish, here is where you jump up and down on me if I’m wrong *grins*, but you present as very extroverted to my eyes) the more likely you are to think the above scenario is useful.So, help me test this, flist: Like or dislike? Introverted or extroverted? Feel free to ramble in comments.
Disclaimers: Firstly, the VIP card scenario does require you to willingly give over contact details, so the argument can go ‘just don’t sign up in the first place’. Leave that aside for the moment: let’s say you weren’t aware of the microchip function, for example.
Secondly, I’m typing this after midnight, mid-way through Swancon. I’ve rambled, and will probably edit later. Mostly, I just want to get the idea out there while it’s still percolating in my head. Differences in personality fascinate me, and right now the example is fresh in my mind. If it turns out that the ease/discomfort is actually the result of [insert random factor X here] then so be it. *grin*
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From:
no subject
But then again, you are really giving over all this information already if you use a credit or eftpos card--just not directly to the person on the other side of the counter.
From:
no subject
To try to tie my reaction to your hypothesis, it might be because I'm a facts-based person (strong S in the Myers-Briggs). I like to know a lot of "facts" about other people and I don't mind others knowing them about me. I find it much easier to interact with people when all the basic "facts" are known. It wouldn't worry me that a shop assistant knew more about me than I knew about them, since they're there to serve me!
From:
no subject
Ages ago I saw on catalyst a system that recognises you and provides you with discounts on your most favoured items, etc, which I actually thought was awesome. At no point did anyone who didn't know you pretend to know you. Everything was handled via computer.
From:
no subject
Yes. That's exactly where my underlying unease is, just better expressed ;)
From:
no subject
Bruce Schnier discussed this so much better than I can. Go read.
and here is his rebuttal against, "If you aren't doing anything wrong, what have you to hide?
I mind who I give my details to. I like my anonymity wrt commercial entities. As
(I'm borderline Int/Ext on the Myers-Briggs, so take that! statistics)
Voluntarily giving your information over is a slightly different thing. That is disclosure, and what the VIP card entails. at that point, you have entered into a business relationship with the commercial entity and given them information about yourself in trade for preferential treatment.
For a long time I would not sign my name onto the SmartRider system because Transperth had no privacy policy. They could, if they wanted, do anything with our details. That has changed, thankfully. mind you, the only reason I eventually signed up was for the auto-debit, so I didn't have to face the hassle of finding reload machines.
From:
no subject
I have seen some other short stories which take the two extremes, but can't find them off the top of my head ...
From:
no subject
Ditto on the Miss Random Schmoe.
I had vague unease about the SmartRider system, too, although mine were more general 'my movements are being tracked' rather than 'they can do whatever they like with the data'. My unease has been usurped by 'hey, this is convenient!' which I suppose says we eventually swallow what they want us to.
From:
no subject
I had that concern as well.
But then I reassured myself that, as I can always pay cash at any stage, I won't be tracked unless I let myself.
It's that aspect of choice which is the most important to me.
In the VIP card scenario, I can choose to take the VIP card to the store, or choose to accidentally break the RFID chip with a hammer, so it functions only as a visual card :)
From:
no subject
To be honest, I'm not totally keen with the idea of the chip card/shop scanner scenario myself. I was mainly arguing devils advocate in that discussion because I'm fascinated by people's reaction to perceived invasions of privacy and what constitutes that.
I got a lot out of the discussion in terms of discussing customer service. It's interesting to see what others consider to be good or bad customer service, and how much information they think sales assistants should have.
From:
no subject
It was a fascinating discussion -- thanks for bringing it up! For me, and as other people are articulated better, it's all about the human relationship factor, and having the information on a screen does feel like 'faking it.'
From:
no subject
1. I've noticed that, at protests, particularly ones where some of us are likely to get arrested, that when there are a LOT of people around taking photos, video etc., that the threat of surveillance i.e. surveillance as a form of control is removed.
2. I have a belligerent (sp.) stance that whatever goes well for me will be because I've been being exactly myself, with no subterfuge or hiding.
(you did say that rambly responses were acceptable)
I'm most definitely an 'extrovert' (I really liked babalon_93's distinction between 'energies by others vs. energies by solo). I think that gathering information for the purposes of marketing without your knowledge is creepy and somewhat disgusting. I'm really in favour of 'critical thinking', and things which encourage that - and trying to subtly manipulate people is not that.