52/9: Northern Lights, by Philip Pullman

[maharetr]

I think the book's reputation precedes it for this one. I wanted to like it more than I actually did: female protagonist? atheism -- actual atheism -- as a starting point? Familiars that could talk and morph? It all sounded like a kink-hitter, but it all didn't quite work for me. It was at the very least a curious experience having a protagonist who I struggled to identify with, and I think, typing it out, that that's where most of my difficulties lay, despite the fact that the world was built well. Lyra was mostly someone inaccessible to me, particularly at the point where Pullman says: "Here she is, in the enemy's den, and she's totally calm because she lacks imagination and is certain that things will all work out fine." And I'm blinking and thinking: "okay, if she isn't concerned, why should I be?"

I felt a little stirring when she's standing in front of the Aurora, holding Pan and saying: "It's just us, together. Let's go!" and that's enough to make me pick up The Subtle Knife, and because I'm curious in spite of myself about how she'll view this 'new' world she's found herself in. (Plus, I bought all three in one hit, in very pretty covers. :))

Comments

[mr-booboo.livejournal.com]

Atheism is a selling point for you? I'm only asking out of curiosity because so much has been made out of the the "lack of God" in this book.

It has never occurred to me to read a book because of the religious/spiritual (or lack of) content. If there is a component in there, it doesn't bother me either. But I know it bothers quite a few people. Both sides. I know some in our group who do not watch or read stuff because the religious content is too much. It doesn't seem to bother me if it has to do with the plot of the book or the character involved.

I didn't enjoy Northern Lights or Golden Compass all that much. I didn't hate it, but I didn't love it either. It's definitely his characterisation. I don't particularly find Lyra likable. She's spoilt and bratty and lacks any real depth. I can deal with the spoilt and bratty, I couldn't deal with the lack of character development.

[maharetr.livejournal.com]

I'm an atheist with agnostic/pagan leanings, and an intellectual fascination with religion, esp. the lunatic/fundamentalist fringe.

Fantasy novels seem to have a mandatory religious component, even if it's only mentioned in passing. This is not a bad thing at all (see: intellectual fascination), but to have a fantasy novel based around "organised religion is bad and must die" (and I was more talking about what I knew of the trilogy as a whole, rather than Northern Lights alone) is a point of interest simply because it's not something I've come across before.

I'm glad it wasn't just me irritated by Lyra. I'm a chapter into The Subtle Knife and by page 9 I was transfixed, so I'm hopeful for the rest of the trilogy. *crosses fingers*

[mr-booboo.livejournal.com]

Tragically, I have two of the books (not sure if I have book 2 or book 3). I didn't bother reading it. It lacked an emotional connection and I was therefore less invested. I may eventually read it.

I have a suspicion that I have book 3 which may also be why I have not read it.

[psycho-tabby.livejournal.com]

One of the main reasons I brought Northern Lights to read was that there was a review of it in the paper saying it was like an anti-Narnia, against religion instead of for it. I find that idea attractive in a book.


I was really surprised that the movie seemed to go overboard with it when the book was more subtle. I had thought they would tone it down for the movie more.

[mr-booboo.livejournal.com]

The atheist aspects of the movie didn't even register. For me, it was a fantasy movie and I didn't notice the "anti-religion" aspects. What I didn't like was Lyra (and the stupid song at the end). I can't connect with her. I liked Mrs Coulter a LOT better than I liked Lyra because she at least was a little interesting.

The characters were so 2 dimensional and OMG, it was so emotionless and dull. Part of me was wishing Mrs Coulter would catch Lyra and kill her off. Whatever.

At least it was better than Transformers.

[psycho-tabby.livejournal.com]

I disliked the movie, but I really liked the book.

I'm really surprised the anti religion thing didn't register with you, they were slathering it on like a tonne of bricks.

The Lyra actor couldn't act for shit and really pissed me off. I wished the bear would hit her at one point.

[mr-booboo.livejournal.com]

I wished the bear would hit her at one point.

OMG! Yes!

The anti-religion thing rarely registers for me when it comes to fantasy because I assume that it's a new made up world. If the world has it's own religion, great, if it doesn't, great. It's someone else's universe and it isn't real. Plus, in the HDM universe, while there is no real established religion, there is a belief (or fact) that the person is interconnected with their daemon (or animal) which in a way is still a sort of spirituality. And when their daemon is removed from them, part of their soul is also removed and they can't cope.

What the difference between that belief and a religious belief? Absolutely nothing except for the establishment. Oh wait, they call that the Magisterium don't they? Religion, spirituality, daemon... it's all just a different name for the same thing. Faith or belief in something other than one self.

So God isn't in this (thus the atheism aspect), but what's in it is a replacement they call daemon. I seriously don't see a difference. OTOH, I'm not fundamentalist and I don't intentionally look for these themes. I'm only offended if the book/movie is poo-pooing other beliefs because at the end of the day, it's no body's business what someone else believes in a god or not, it's how they chose to live their lives. Plus, it's a story. Big deal. I find the Harry Potter books a lot more damaging to kids than this series.

[maharetr.livejournal.com]

in the HDM universe, while there is no real established religion, Did you typo that? ;)

I see the daemons not so much as a belief as Pullman saying: "for the purposes of these books, everyone has souls, they're just expressed differently in each world." The daemons are people's souls, not just parts, which is why people who had been 'cut' from their daemons were actually called zombis (sic!).

God is very much in the later books at least, and even in Northern Lights, characters quote a modified version of the bible (I haven't read the last two yet, but I've read broad spoilers)

I'm more bugged by the alethiometer than the daemons or the anti-organised religion: It appears to tell the truth (as far as I've read it's spot on), but how?

On a slightly different topic: I find the Harry Potter books a lot more damaging to kids than this series. *head tilt* Interesting choice of words? :)

[mr-booboo.livejournal.com]

No, I didn't typo it. I'm saying that a fundamental atheist stance is the flip side of the coin. And I'm definitely drawing links between the Magisterium and the Vatican. I also think that the soul/daemon is in itself a spirituality or belief structure, albeit a more tangible one. Again, having only read Northern Lights, I can only go by what I have read and watched, and to be honest, I don't remember much from the book.

I just remember that when I read it, religion or lack thereof didn't even enter my mind as one of the themes.

The alethiometer is a bother, but not as bothersome as the bearer and reader of all truth is also one of the story's biggest liars. I can only assume so as she supposedly lacks imagination.

My issues with Harry Potter has nothing to do with religion and everything to do with bigotry and categorising everybody. Gryffindor = good, Slytherin = bad. Big giant blanket statements/generalisations and a black and white universe terrifies me. And idolising athletes over academics... don't even get me started. Don't get me wrong, I love the Potterverse. I just hate the canon. I find it extremely bothersome and the politics horrifies me.

I get that it is a kids book, but JKR doesn't even bother to go beyond the 2 dimensional characterisations. She doesn't give her secondary characters the opportunity to develop. There seems to be no other house beyond Gryffindor. And this thing that courage or bravery is the most important trait is ridiculous. There doesn't seem to have any real consequences for actions if they are the "good guys" and OMG, don't even start about the epilogue. STUPID!

Um... the end?

[maharetr.livejournal.com]

Hee! Total WORD to the Harry Potter stuff.

To me, the fact that Northern Lights quoted Genesis and talked about original sin seemed heavily religious, but I pay the fact that it's been a long time since you read it (and the potential that it didn't register as such with you) :)

[mr-booboo.livejournal.com]

The religious stuff rarely registers with me unless it's part of the plot or the characterisation. The race stuff always do and sometimes I have to take a step back to make sure I'm not just being sensitive about it.

Really? It quoted Genesis? Bloody hell. I need a reread.

[psycho-tabby.livejournal.com]

Ahh ditto.

[psycho-tabby.livejournal.com]

Oh I read things very differently to you then. Lots of the stuff I read I see in relation to our world and I think the comparison it what makes it often so good, for example Diskworld would not be half as funny if you weren't comparing the real world to it all the time. Northern Lights has similar city names and similar infrastructure and I find I unconsciously compare it to the real world.

I'm surprised about the Harry Potter thing. How do you see them as harmful? Especially as they are obviously fantasy?

[mr-booboo.livejournal.com]

I make comparisons, but I also chuck out a lot of my expectations and preconceived ideas if it's a completely new universe. If it's an AU, then I treat that differently too.

But yeah, we read and process differently. Isn't that great?

The Potterverse...see above comments. It has nothing to do with religion. It has to do with values and generalisations. If I had kids under 13, I don't know if I could let them read it without discussing some of the themes involved. I would like my non-existent children to be a lot more broadminded than that.